UFYB 262: WHAT BLOCKS US FROM NEW BELIEFS: A CONVERSATION WITH BROOKE CASTILLO PART 2

Welcome to Unf*ck Your Brain, the only podcast that teaches you how to use psychology, feminism, and coaching, to rewire your brain and get what you want in life. And now here’s your host, Harvard Law School grad, feminist rockstar, and master coach, Kara Loewentheil.

Hello, my chickens. We are here for the second part of this series with my teacher, and mentor, and coach, Brooke Castillo. If you did not listen to part one, you have to go listen because it was so mind blowing. I wish you guys could see us on Zoom because we kept being like, one person would be talking and the other person would be doing mind blowing things with our hands or being like, “What?” And banging on table. We really did some deep work. So go listen to last week’s episode if you haven’t.

Okay, so today we’re going to talk about this thing that I have been really thinking about lately which is when we don’t have something that is forcing us to change, we’re not reacting to something and we are trying to imagine what we could evolve into or what we could create. We have been talking about how when people have a goal or a way they want to grow, or evolve, or whatever, where they think they might.

That there can be this real resistance to imagining it working out or what could be possible that I feel like is something that you must, I mean you’re the person who teaches the impossible goal. That’s just something that comes up a lot for you and your clients. So, I want to talk about that. What do you think that is about? Why do we have such kind of psychological blocks? When you’re coaching someone and you’re like, “Okay, but what if this amazing thing could happen?” And they’re like, “No.”

Brooke: Yeah, I mean I was just coaching someone on this. And I was like. So, this happens to me all the time where I’m coaching someone and I can see so clearly that this result is very doable for them, especially if I’m coaching someone on money and business. I have a perspective where I’m just like, “This is as good as done.” And I’ll tell a client that, I’ll be like, “This is a done deal. If you do this, this and this, this is already done.” And they’ll be like, “No.” “What do you mean no?” And they’ll just be like, “No.”

And it is kind of like this vehement shutdown that’s like a reflux. And then I’ll say something like, “Well, do you want this result?” “Yes.” “Okay, but you can actually have it.” And they’ll say, “No.” And I think this relates actually to our last podcast too, to wanting what you want, giving yourself permission to want what you want is huge. But also giving yourself permission to have what you want. I think that’s the impossible part of the impossible goal, not creating it.

Kara: Right. There’s actually first of all, people don’t allow – I saw you coach someone recently also where they were like, “Well, no, I basically haven’t don’t enough to deserve that.” There is that, we are socialized around. And this is partly gender and then it’s partly sort of capitalist socialization, that’s sort of like we have to work hard to make money.

Brooke: I haven’t worked hard enough to deserve that yet.

Kara: I haven’t worked hard enough to deserve it. It’s a deserving thing and you earn it by working hard. And I haven’t worked enough hours. I haven’t [crosstalk 3:15] enough.

Brooke: That’s what I love, you can’t work hard enough to make the amount of money that I make, you just can’t. There’s just not enough hours in the day to make millions of dollars, you just can’t. And someone else has a mathematical equation about what you woman working for me deserve in terms of pay.

Kara: And even that deserve is part of it at all, because there are obviously extremely – I mean I think we’re all worthy. But also, there are obviously people who aren’t able to make money or choose not to, or whatever because of their circumstances, because of their values. And it’s not about deserving at all. And there’s plenty of people making money doing things we agree with and things we don’t agree with. Deserving is just not part of it, I mean in the sense that I think this is such something that women are taught too.

It’s like you have to be good enough to get the reward. Be a good girl and you get the reward. And so, then it’s like so you have to…

Brooke: Yes. It’s back to that authority thing. Someone else can decide what we deserve, or what we’re worthy of, or how much we can make, or what we have to do in order to.

Kara: Right. Where did we come up with that standard? Well, I worked hard enough because I wrote 26 emails, but if I’d written 12 emails that wouldn’t be working hard enough on this launch.

Brooke: Well, and if you think about business, this is what I love about what we do. This is what I love about the work that I get to do in the world is because I get paid for the value that I create for other people. That’s how it works. If I create enough value that they agree is valuable they will pay me regardless of how many hours I’ve worked, regardless of how much I’ve suffered, or struggled. It can actually be very easy. Listen, this is true. It can be very easy to provide tremendous value for lots of people. That is crazy to think about.

It doesn’t have to be hard to provide tremendous value for lots of people. And in fact, I have seen that the more money that people want to make the less they have to suffer to create it.

Kara: Yeah, I think that suffering and the suffering for a return theme, which just also feels very like Christian theology to me kind of. You have to suffer in this world to gain salvation. It’s like you suffer for a reward. Whereas Jews are like, we just suffer, there is no reward, there is just suffering and then you die, that’s it.

Brooke: Oh my gosh. And aren’t we taught that? I feel like we’re really socialized to believe this, that there’s a certain amount. Money doesn’t grow on trees, even though it does, that money doesn’t grow on trees and that you have to work hard if you want to have a good life. And you’ve got to work hard if you want this or that, or the other thing. It’s not you have to figure out a way to provide as much value as possible into the world.

Kara: Right. And I think, yeah, well, another way this I think connects to what we talked about last time is that there are obviously people in the world whose circumstances make that much more challenging. But for those of us who do have access to the internet, our own brains and have been able to have an education and all the things that make it possible to do that. I think, to me, I’m like, it’s not just a nice to have, it’s like we have a responsibility to kind of create and live up to our full potential in order to make the world a better place.

For me that’s a very sort of positive motivation. It’s not like I have to save the world all by myself but I don’t know how to change global warming. Knowing that some people who are alive today will never have the opportunities. Am I going to squander them out of my own kind of fear, or insecurity, or am I going to do the work that’s necessary to express that in a way that helps move the world?

Brooke: That’s to me, because I think a lot of people will say it’s not okay for me to want that because there are people that don’t have the same privilege that I do.

Kara: Yeah. It’s like people misusing the concept privilege, I’m constantly telling people that, “Privilege is a political analysis. It’s not an immoral calculator for your personal worth.” It’s not a math problem you do to figure out how good or bad of a person you are, or how guilty or ashamed you’re supposed to feel.

Brooke: And I have the opposite response to it. So, I think sometimes people will say, “It’s not okay for me to want to make a lot of money because I have all this privilege and I have been given all this opportunity.” And I’m like, “No, I feel like.” And especially I think about all the women that came before us. I’m like, “Because I have given this opportunity”, like what you’re saying, I have a responsibility to not just be the best version that I can be with what I’ve been given. But also, to then help the people that maybe don’t have as much privilege.

It puts me in a position to be able to at least offer that and to set an example for meeting other people. I mean what is it? It’s like I don’t deserve it. I haven’t done enough suffering to be worthy of it. I think that’s what a lot of people…

Kara: Yeah. I think it’s like we think that it’s like a zero sum game. So, it’s like if I already have the privilege of being healthy and living in a place with clean running water and having an education then I, yeah.

Brooke: I should just be happy for what I have, I should just appreciate that.

Kara: Yeah. But that’s just also social conditioning that women get. Women are supposed to be happy with what they’re given and be grateful for what they have. I don’t think that men get socialized in the same way as much. Men are sort of taught, you are a conquering king, go out and conquer your kingdom.

Brooke: That is so true.

Kara: And women are socialized to stay at home until the king your husband brings home your little share then you can put it in your little pocket bag. And then you can be in charge of the 20 cents.

Brooke: Yeah. I mean I think it’s, as women, you should be as pleasant, and pretty as possible. And men, you better make sure that you go out there and do this thing.

Kara: Yeah. Be seen and not heard and definitely don’t ask for anything. Just be grateful for what you’re given.

Brooke: I haven’t ever thought about it that way. That’s actually really interesting. I was just talking about this today. People will say to me, “When is enough going to be enough, Brooke? When are you just going to be satisfied and stop trying to be so ambitious and trying to make more money?” And to me it’s just the wrong question because it’s a misunderstanding of why I do what I do, as if there will be a point where I’ll be able to achieve enough then I will be able to be grateful and happy with myself. I already am.

And can we start from that place of worthiness? Okay, this is kind of an interesting thing to think about. When I was coaching someone today they were thinking, I don’t deserve this level of success. I haven’t worked hard enough to get it. And then there’s the other thing where it’s just like, well, I’ve already arrived and so I shouldn’t want anymore. I should be satisfied.

Kara: But all of that, it’s like it’s predicated on this, I have so much I want to say about, we have so many different interesting tangents.

Brooke: Right. Control yourself, yeah.

Kara: I know, it’s hard. Okay, so the thing I want to say to that is that there’s, I think all of that comes from the mistaken belief that success, money and we’ve been talking to someone about money and that’s one of the ways you do your goals. But you can substitute anything in this conversation. I’m going to look a certain size, I’m going to have the right kind of wedding. I’m going to write a book, whatever it is. Why aren’t you satisfied with having written three bestsellers, why do you have to write a fourth one?

Nobody would probably say that because we have certain beliefs about money. But I think all that comes from the mistaken idea that that thing, success or whatever it is, or the amount of money is what would make you happy. We don’t say to ourselves, “I just don’t deserve to go to the bathroom today.” I mean some people might think that if they’ve been really intense socialization. But there’s some weird hitch in the thinking that’s like, I don’t deserve success, I haven’t worked hard enough.

But that implies that success is some inherently good thing that is going to be pleasant and positive that you haven’t worked to achieve. But success is not inherently anything, it’s just whatever it is, the amount of money in your bank account, amount of clients on your roster, amount of books on the bestseller list. That doesn’t cause your feelings.

Brooke: Well, I will tell you, when this first started with me was when I had in my mind and it’s obvious why I had this in my mind, that if I could just be thin, that I would be happy. There was a point in my life I’d rather be thin than happy because I thought thin was the ultimate, I grew up in the 80s. The ultimate pinnacle of success and that when I arrived there I would finally feel whole, and complete, and loved. And that’s the interesting thing, it had to be hard to get thin. It wouldn’t have worked at all if it had been easy.

Kara: Well, that’s why naturally thin people will have some other thing they’re supposed to be doing.

Brooke: Of course, they’re not going to pick that one, they’re not going to be like, “Well I’m thin so therefore I’m worthy.” I remember looking at women and just being like, “You’re thin, why aren’t we talking about this? You have reached the pinnacle of life.” And they couldn’t care less about that. They’re feeling unworthy about something else.

Kara: Right. So do you think this is part of, to pull it back, I have one theory about why people don’t want to imagine that the good thing could actually happen, that the change could actually happen, the transformation is possible. But do you think that this is maybe part of it? It’s like we almost don’t want to believe it could happen because we need to keep a thing that we can’t get to?

Brooke: A 100%. That’s why I kept gaining weight back because I believe this is what happened. And I watched actually a lot of other people that kind of came up in this industry with me, had the belief that once they got the money, once they got the weight loss, once they got whatever it was then they’d feel whole and complete. And that’s why so many people sabotage themselves on the way, because they’re afraid and they actually know, I think, deep down that that’s not the case and it’s never going to be the point.

Kara: Right. So, we don’t ever get there because then we’ll have to experience the disappointment of grieving that fantasy that it’s over, that it doesn’t actually work.

Brooke: You’re still you. The way that I describe it is your life still sucks half the time no matter what, no matter – you’ve fallen in love with the love of your life. Have you ever had a negative emotion?

Kara: Yeah. We could do a whole podcast about what to do when falling in love feels terrible. I’m like, “This is the worst thing that’s ever happened.” I’m still waiting for the part that – but of course we’re sold that.

Brooke: This is an example though, think of how many people, let’s just stay with women, how many women believe when they have what you have which is you have someone in your life that you genuinely love and loves you, that you’ll have no problems left in your life?

Kara: Right. And that’s supposed to feel good. I mean based on my example I think a lot of people have probably left great relationships because it didn’t feel like that honeymoon period they thought they were supposed to feel. And it didn’t feel like butterflies, and dopamine, and just constantly feeling amazing. So, when we think about why we are afraid, or resistant, or even angry when someone suggests that something amazing could happen, or that we could get an amazing outcome.

The other thing that I think kind of comes – so the one proposal we have is that is that…

Brooke: It takes away the hope.

Kara: Yeah. We don’t want to believe it’s actually possible because we’re in a dysfunctional relationship with the fantasy and so we want to keep that fantasy but not believe it’s really possible in some weird way. To me just coming back to the authority thing, because I think maybe part of it is that, why is it a risk to believe something good can happen? Because people don’t want to feel disappointed when it doesn’t. But what is disappointment? I actually don’t think, pure disappointment is not that bad where it’s like your ice-cream fell out of the cone.

It’s like what people are really afraid of is that they’ll make themselves wrong.

Brooke: But they’ll think what you said, that there’s something wrong with them because they’re not able to do it, yeah.

Kara: Right, exactly. Yeah, so it’s like, okay, well, I believed Kara, I believed Brooke that it was possible for me to change my life, and I tried and then it didn’t work exactly the way I wanted it to, or whatever happened, they didn’t get the outcome quick enough, or they did get the outcome, they’re like, “fucking still 50/50 and I still feel like a human.”

But then what is the worst case scenario of believing something is possible for you and trying, is that it doesn’t happen and then you beat the shit out of yourself. That’s what we’re actually afraid of is the meaning we’ll give the potential failure.

Brooke: Yeah. I mean believing in yourself is a decision you make. So, you decide to believe that you can make an impact on the world let’s say. And so, you go out there and you say, “I want to impact this many people or I want to change this many situations in the world”, or whatever. And then you believe that you can do it and you go about doing it. And you fall short of whatever it was, the intention that you believed in. We can say, “So what, you did more than you would have.”

Kara: Right. Then you actually tried and you got 50 people impacted instead of zero.

Brooke: Yeah. And you don’t have to stop believing we just maybe need to change the timeline. But there is a threat in that for so many of us, the threat of believing and it not being true, we make that mean there’s something wrong with us.

Kara: Yeah. And it’s also not being able to handle negative emotion. I mean I think that’s why we teach the first week in joining The Clutch is actually not your thoughts, it’s feelings. You have to start with emotions because we feel so unequipped to tolerate disappointment because we’re just so afraid of feeling that disappointment. And we don’t just think of it as well, okay, the worst thing that happens is I fail and I feel these things in my body for a few days and then I go on with my life. We believe it’s going to be crushing in some way. And then we would rather just not even risk it.

Brooke: Yeah. And I do think that comes from, for many of us, it comes from not being able to handle disappointment from when we were younger. Not being able to process emotion before because it does feel crushing. But as an adult, disappointment is a 48 hour process.

Kara: Right. So, my partner’s six year old is very disappointed if his ice-cream falls. That feels very tragic to him. But as an adult you’re like, “It’s going to be okay, there’ll be more ice-cream tomorrow.”

Brooke: There will be more ice-creams. And your willingness to be disappointed. This is really interesting, and not make it mean anything negative about you personally.

Kara: Yeah, it’s disappointed, not disappointed in yourself. That’s the big distinction I think. We would rather not risk something than be disappointed in ourselves, because that’s just shame.

Brooke: Yes, there’s something wrong with us because we weren’t able to achieve that, so why even try?

Kara: I think a lot of us feel shame and call that disappointment but that’s not disappointment, that’s shame we’re feeling. Disappointed is the restaurant’s out of the thing you wanted to eat. And you’re like, “I was really looking forward to that.” And it’s a little bit of a bummer. I did this wrong, I should never have let myself believe I could do it. I’m bad and wrong. That’s all shame. That’s not actually disappointment.

Brooke: Yeah. I’ll give an example, in business about how I was working with this coach, Frank Kern and I had this opt-in page that wasn’t working. And I was like, “I’m a failure. I can’t market. I don’t know how to get clients.” And he was like, “Or we just need to change your headline.” And I think that’s what we do. We make it mean there’s something wrong with us. And I do think we’re socialized that way. I think our education system teaches us that, that you are smart or you aren’t smart. It’s like work we do in school becomes our identity. Versus just you didn’t do that thing well, you’re amazing.

Kara: Right. Your skill level in this operation is low.

Brooke: Isn’t quite right there, yes.

Kara: Right, that’s so good.

Brooke: Instead of defining ourselves by it, yeah.

Kara: So, I just think it’s so important, if you are thinking about making any kind of big transformation, or changing your life, or taking any kind of risk. And for some of you that may be joining The Clutch which is now opening. And for some of you it might be applying to the job, people don’t apply to jobs that they would want to get because what if they don’t get it. They don’t ask someone out because God forbid you get rejected. Whatever it is, that sort of risk that you are wanting to take, I think we think about it just in the sense of if the bad thing happened then I would feel this way.

And we don’t spend time in that, what if the good thing happens, why am I unwilling to contemplate that? It’s just really fascinating to really with that compassionate curious observation, just watch your own brain. This is so interesting, why am I so unwilling to contemplate that I maybe could actually have what I want?

Brooke: And this is actually super relevant for any of your students who maybe are on the fence about signing up through The Clutch. Because I’ve been actually talking to a lot of my clients about why we make decisions or don’t. And listening to the last podcast about how powerful it is to make a decision. So, if I think about the reason I’m going to join The Clutch or not and this is what everyone should do. You should think about this.

If the reason is and this is so common, I don’t think it will work for me, I don’t think I can have the kind of success that other people are claiming. I don’t think that I will be able to make the changes that help me become the best version of myself because there’s something not quite right with me. That’s fine, your brain will do that. Let it do that. But give equal airtime to what if it is. What if this could? What if working in this environment with all these people, and all this input could create the result that I actually want? And then at least have a balance between.

Kara: It’s like informed consent is just the negative thing and not the positive.

Brooke: Yes. Versus if you’re not conscious about it, your brain will just tell you, “There’s no way that you could ever do that.” And that’s why most of us hold ourselves back so unnecessarily.

Kara: And we don’t want to claim that authority, [crosstalk]. One of the things people think is, I don’t trust myself to make this decision. And I always say to people, “Honestly, it’d be a huge growth if you signed up for The Clutch, never signed in and then never should on yourself about it.” That, obviously you’ll get more out of it if you do sign in, and do the work.

Brooke: But that actually is such a good point.

Kara: It’s true, it would be more growth and more powerful for your future to take a risk or say you’re going to – whatever, not fall through or fail, and not beat yourself up. That is so much more valuable than whatever you save by not taking a risk.

Brooke: Right. And it’s like, how many chances don’t we give ourselves?

Kara: Right. I think it is safety. That’s actually, as I was saying, that it’s like what we think is because I don’t trust myself to make this decision, the safest thing to do is not do anything. But actually, what’s safe is knowing that whatever you do you have your own back.

Brooke: Yeah, whatever you do, you’re going to keep yourself safe.

Kara: Right. You are going to get emotional safety for yourself.

Brooke: You’re not going to be the weapon against yourself, yes.

Kara: Yes, so good. And women are so socialized to use everything as a weapon against themselves. I mean women are trained to be a weapon against themselves from birth. Look in the mirror and look for everything that’s wrong and figure out how to fix it.

Brooke: Oh my gosh, that’s so good. And so many people will say to me, “Well, I’ve signed up for so many different things and I haven’t followed through on them so I should stop signing up for things.” I’m like, “No, keep signing up for things. Keep giving yourself as many chances as you can possibly have to win. Don’t stop giving yourself chances because you’re beating yourself up saying, “Well, I procrastinate, I don’t follow through and I don’t do all that.”” Do not live from that.

Kara: That’s so good. I coached someone at Clutch College about this. And she had this identity thought like, I’m someone who doesn’t follow through. And I was like, “Are you wearing clothes and you got here today. You followed through. You are someone who sometimes follows through and sometimes doesn’t like every other fucking human on the planet.” And then I was like, “Do you know how many things I’ve signed up for and not done?”

Brooke: But you could either say, “I’ve signed up for so many things and I haven’t followed through on them, there’s something wrong with me.” Or, “I am a person who gives myself a lot of chances. Don’t follow through on all of them but I don’t need to.”

Kara: Right. That’s what I’m saying, so I was like, “But the room”, when I was like, “Listen, I sign up for stuff all the time and then end up not doing it or get to it later.” And the room was like, “Oh.” As though that was – and everybody was like, “Oh my God, that’s such a relief.” And I was like, “First of all, do you guys listen to me? How often do I talk about not being perfect? What is happening here?” But yes, exactly, and I never beat myself up about it. I’m like, “I learned one thing from the inter video, so that was useful.”

I love that sort of how many, right, it’s that same perfectionist mindset of if I didn’t do it perfectly the first time, I don’t deserve another chance.

Brooke: And let me tell you this, if you’re someone that’s listening to this and you’ve signed up for a lot of different things and you haven’t followed through on them, there is so much power in every single one of those decisions that you made. And you can look at it as I’m a person who exercises my authority. I’m a person who makes decisions for ourselves. And you can use that as evidence that you are capable in exercising power in your life, whether you follow through on every single thing that you sign up for or not does not even need to be relevant.

Kara: That’s so good because it’s like people are like, “Well, if I don’t know that I will make one decision correctly, I’ll just make no decisions.” As opposed to, if I’m willing to make decisions that could go either way, and I make a 100 of them, I’ll make 50 great ones. And yeah, there were 50 that weren’t good but now I’ve made 50 great decisions rather than making zero decisions.

Brooke: And I just want to tie this all up from what we’ve been talking about. Making a decision to want what you want and to get what you want is one of the most powerful things that you can do in your life. And crazily enough, one of the hardest things to actually decide that you want something just because you want it and decide to attempt. You don’t even have to decide to get it, just deciding to attempt to get it just because you want it. That decision will change your life.

Listen, hear this, this says everything. It’s not getting the thing that you want that changes your life, it’s deciding that you deserve to make the attempt to get the thing that you want in your life that changes your life.

Kara: A 100%, on your deathbed, you will not be like, “Well, I’m so glad I never tried.”

Brooke: Yeah, so glad I didn’t make one decision in my life, I just was afraid. Yeah, so good.

Kara: Right. And that socialization, if you are a woman, it is wild how we think. I’m writing this part about people pleasing right now and it’s like, telling a woman that it’s okay to please herself first is horrifying and shocking to so many people. Because your job is to please everybody else, not to please yourself. But the truth is, when you learn how to tap into what you really want on a deep level, that’s when you can show up the most powerful in the world and create the most change. And that’s when you can actually impact and help so many more people.

If I spent my whole life being like, okay, I’m not allowed to be a coach, so I’ve just got to stay as a law professor and try to people please my mentors, my parents and whatever. I would have helped, I’m sure there’s a few law students, 20. And instead I connected to what I wanted and I was willing to take that risk and better myself. And now the podcast is whatever it is, 45 million downloads or something. That’s how many people are now impacted.

Brooke: And I feel like that’s something, when I was making the decision for me to complete my marriage and I think I had talked to you. And it’s like, it’s enough to do something because you want it – that sounds so foreign.

Kara: To us, you can’t imagine a bunch of men sitting around, a bunch of straight white men sitting around and being like, “Bob, do you think we’re allowed to do something just because we want to?” And then Brian would be like, “No, I’ve never done anything I want to in my whole life.” You just can’t imagine that scene happening.

Brooke: Am I allowed to do this? So many of our conversations are like, “Am I allowed to just do this just because I really genuinely want to?” That’s the only way you live a life of integrity. Every other life is a lie.

Kara: And it’s going to feel uncomfortable because you have not, you’ve been taught the opposite.

Brooke: That’s wild. We’ve been taught to live the lie.

Kara: We’ve been taught to live the lie. So come join The Clutch.

Brooke: Don’t live the lie.

Kara: Don’t live the lie. That’s where you learn it.

Brooke: That should be your tagline, come to The Clutch, don’t live the lie.

Kara: Don’t live the lie. No, that sounds like some kind of brainwashing cult, for sure.

Brooke: Especially when you say it like that.

Kara: I didn’t know you had such a good action announcer voice. When we do our podcast about the two different kinds of change, I want you to talk in that voice the whole time.

Brooke: Okay, perfect.

Kara: Thank you coming on my friend.

Brooke: Oh my gosh, I love you, thank you for having me. This was so fun.

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